[Babase] Psion jpsamps and fpsamps in wrong tables

Susan Alberts alberts at duke.edu
Sat Mar 3 16:12:14 EST 2007


  I will try sum up the problem as I see it (and my views on it) as  
follows:

On the one hand, we could set a rule that will disallow us to collect  
"JUV" data on females once they have reached maturity. This will make  
it very clear to every user that they have not missed any data in the  
system and it will produce a conceptually clean transition from  
juvenility to adulthood. This approach would mean throwing away some  
data (specifically, "JUV" data collected on females after maturity).  
Is this correct?

On the other hand, we could continue to allow females to have both  
juv and adult samples collected on them for some time. This would be  
conceptually messy but would reflect the reality that the observers  
will make these errors. This would also allow us retain all our data,  
even though some of those data might be overlooked by users who are  
not as familiar with the data set.

It seems to me that, if we choose the second approach, SOME users  
will inadvertently overlook some data. If we choose the second  
approach, ALL users will be denied access to those data (because we  
will have disallowed them, in order to avoid some users from  
inadvertently overlooking them).  I don't see that this is a good  
approach.

I did not follow the entire thread, so I may be off the mark here,  
but my view is that we should live with the fact that females jump  
back and forth -- the only way to prevent it is to eliminate data  
from babase.

Susan


On Mar 2, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Jeanne Altmann wrote:

> Laurence was at first confused and worried about these, but for her  
> use,
> she can solve the immediately problem without trouble.  She will use
> matdate, and the data she is looking at are the same in both types of
> samples (activity).
>
> As Karl points out, having them in the same file in the new system  
> will
> help a lot.
>
> We do need this well documented for any new use or user, however,  
> as it
> is odd and at variance with collection protocol.  Is it well  
> documented
> in an immediate place to find?
>
> We explicitly decided not to use matdate as I recall [SUSAN?] in order
> not to lose a significant number of samples that would be useful for
> just what Laurence is doing--basic time budgets--in situations when  
> the
> loss could be important.  Also, some of the type of error around the
> time of maturation is inevitable because some matdates are a month or
> two at odds with what the field team thinks--for example, when I  
> look at
> the records, an initial very small swelling does not ultimately  
> meet our
> criterion for a 'cycle'.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: babase-bounces at eeblistserv.princeton.edu
> [mailto:babase-bounces at eeblistserv.princeton.edu] On Behalf Of Karl O.
> Pinc
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 1:41 PM
> To: The Baboon Database Project
> Cc: The Baboon Database Project
> Subject: Re: [Babase] Psion jpsamps and fpsamps in wrong tables
>
>
> On 03/02/2007 11:44:37 AM, kfenn wrote:
>> Hi Everyone,
>>
>> I'm going to open a can of worms that has been opened before, but we
>> need some input from Duke about current psion protocol and possible a
>> programmed "rule" to help clean up the psamps tables for users.
>
>> However, the allowances in the jpsamps table have created problems
>> for users like Laurence.   If there is no rule enforcing membership
>> in only the adult table after a maturedate is listed, then the
>> individual can 'jump' back and forth between adult and juvenile  
>> tables
>
>> for potentially up to a year if the field team and/or data managers
>> are not vigilant.  Anyone trying to use these data risk not capturing
>> all the available data if they only search one table or the
>> other.   VEX is one example of this problem.
>>
>> Even if we caution people that this is an existing condition of the
>> database, its hard to give users a simple work around ......you  
>> cannot
>
>> reliable say that once an individual has moved from the juvenile  
>> table
>
>> to the adult table (even if this doesn't prefectly coincide with
>> maturedate), henceforth it will always been found in the adult table.
>
>> 'Maturity' is a slow process so I can see allowing recently matured
>> individuals to remain in juvenile samples for a while, but once an
>> animal is moved to the adult table, it seems important that they
>> should remain there.
>
> We could make it a rule that once you get on the adult table you  
> remain
> there, assuming that that solves Laurance's problem.
> It's not entirely clear to me that it does.  It seems more sane to  
> just
> go back to using the maturity date as a cutoff.
>
> The new system addresses this problem by storing both the adult and
> juvenile data in POINTS_DATA.  You can easily see both adult and
> juvenile data at the same time by ignoring SAMPLES.Stype.
> You may be able to emulate this sort of behavior in foxpro using  
> the SQL
> UNION operator.
>
> Does this help?
>
> Karl <kop at meme.com>
> Free Software:  "You don't pay back, you pay forward."
>                   -- Robert A. Heinlein
>
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-----------------------------------------------
Susan Alberts, Dept. Biology, Duke University, Durham NC 27708. Phone  
919-660-7272, Fax 919-660-7293. alberts at duke.edu



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