[Babase] REPSTATS and the unborn

Jeanne Altmann babase@www.eco.princeton.edu
Tue, 04 May 2004 17:31:16 -0400


excellent, thanks Steph, and that's reassuring!
jeanne

At 03:46 PM 5/4/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>OK- In answer to Jeanne's first question:  all is well.  The only 
>pregnancies that are missing in biograph are the current ones we don't 
>know the result of (i.e. all are for pregnant females who are still alive, 
>as of the end of June 2003 census). So, we are catching those 
>deaths/aborts that are a result of mom dying while pregnant.
>
>-steph
>
>--On Monday, May 03, 2004 6:06 PM -0400 Jeanne Altmann 
><altj@princeton.edu> wrote:
>
>>1.  Can Steph check that all females who are pregnant when they die have
>>an abortion listed on their death date.  When I do the coding, this
>>should happen.  However, if I miss it and the data person doesn't catch
>>that I missed it, this would result in an error in BABASE.  So, we need
>>to check that for now.
>>
>>2.  I favor having repstat work for pregnancies the way it works for
>>lactation--put the row in from conception even though the 'days
>>remaining' column will not be meaningful until the state ends.  Does
>>anyone see a problem with this?  I understand that we won't implement the
>>change until we have the web version up.
>>
>>jeanne
>>
>>
>>At 11:32 AM 5/3/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>This issue is the exact issue I brought up on my email of April 22 (it
>>>wasn't to the whole Babase list, Karl, because it had to do with data we
>>>were pulling together for Joan Silk).  Yes, I discovered that females who
>>>were pregant but had not yet given birth did not have rows in Repstats
>>>for their pregnancies.  I had said then that I didn't really see this as
>>>a problem, just something to be aware of.
>>>
>>>Karl, I believe the same is NOT true for lactating females.  What I found
>>>was that lactating females were in there up till the end of time period
>>>of the table, even if their lactating state had not ended.  Correct me
>>>if I'm wrong about that.  This means that days remaining in state isn't
>>>meaningful for lactating females, but days into state is fine.  This
>>>seems fine to me, since lactation is such a relatively prolonged state -
>>>if we waited until it was over to put the lines in Repstas, like for
>>>pregnancies, we'd be missing a lot more data.  Again, it would just be
>>>something to be aware of.
>>>
>>>About the abortions in Biograph, all of them that are in there do have
>>>birth dates (everyone without an sname has a birth date, and the ones
>>>without snames are the same as the ones with equal birth and statdates).
>>>But I was thinking recently about females who died while they were
>>>pregnant and making sure those pregnancies were getting into Biograph.
>>>I have been aware of it recently and have been checking for this when I
>>>do the demography update, but I think it would be good to check in the
>>>past. Maybe the best way would be to get all the females who died as
>>>adults and see if they were pregnant when they died, and then see if
>>>those pregnancies are in Biograph.  Or maybe look at the pregnancies in
>>>the Pregs table that don't have resume cycles.  Let me know if this is
>>>something I should do here, or if that's something Steph wants to work
>>>on.
>>>
>>>Karl, if a female dies while she's pregnant, does she then get lines in
>>>Repstats for her pregnancy (from conception till death)?  I can check
>>>this, but I thought you might know off hand.  If so, then it might make
>>>checking the above easier.
>>>
>>>Daphne
>>>
>>>
>>>"Karl O. Pinc" wrote:
>>>
>>> > On 2004.05.01 15:34 Jeanne Altmann wrote:
>>> > > We definitely need to check abortions (including fetal death when mom
>>> > > dies) to be sure we get birth dates).
>>> >
>>> > I imagine you already have birthdates, as this is the only record of
>>> > the date
>>> > of the abortion.
>>> >
>>> > > I don't recall why we made this decision, but we should consider all
>>> > > the implications now.  This decision does mean that repstat will have
>>> > > the wrong stat for many females for approximately the most recent
>>> > > 6mos of updates.  This isn't good, so I'm inclined to change this
>>> > > unless there's a good reason not to.
>>> >
>>> > It's not that you have the wrong stat, you have no row at all and
>>> > so no stat.  This seems reasonable to me.  If you did have a row
>>> > it would have the wrong number for 'days remaining in state'.
>>> > With no row, using SQL, you get no results for 'incomplete'
>>> > pregnancies.  This _sounds_ ok to me.
>>> >
>>> > I'm going to try this with some test data to be sure what I think
>>> > is happening is happening.
>>> >
>>> > Note that there's lots of weird data in REPSTATS, as the system
>>> > dosen't know that two sequential cycles years apart mean that
>>> > data is missing, not that one cycle is especially long.
>>> > It _does_ know that data is missing when there's a missing tdate
>>> > or ddate in a cycles row, and then rows don't appear.  I've
>>> > been going over this with Steph.  It seems that the first step
>>> > when using this data is to eliminate nonsensical rows.
>>> > Of course, I can make the program do _anything_, if we have
>>> > good things for it to do.  I'm kind of opting for simple and
>>> > understandable, and what we've got now seems to meet that
>>> > criteria, although I'm biased because I've been working with it.
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > jeanne
>>> > >
>>> > > At 01:16 PM 5/1/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>>> > >> Hi,
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Looking over the program that populates REPSTATS
>>> > >> I notice that when there's a pregnancy you don't get
>>> > >> P rows in repstats until the offspring has a birthdate.
>>> > >> I belive this was intentional, especially as there
>>> > >> is a 'days remaining' in state column which couldn't
>>> > >> be filled out until the length of the state is known,
>>> > >> but there are implications.  I figured I'd write as
>>> > >> we're starting to work with this data.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> All abortions must have rows in BIOGRAPH with a Birth date.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> The as-yet-unborn don't show in REPSTATS.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Karl <kop@meme.com>
>>> > >> Free Software:  "You don't pay back, you pay forward."
>>> > >>                  -- Robert A. Heinlein
>>> > >> _______________________________________________
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>>> > Karl <kop@meme.com>
>>> > Free Software:  "You don't pay back, you pay forward."
>>> >                    -- Robert A. Heinlein
>>> >
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